31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

F-ing crazy world.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

awfull[:@]

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Umm ... with the risk of getting gunned down myself here but ... with the liberal gun laws we have in this country, I really don't find this particularly surprising .. it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when ... All it takes is one nut case with a gun collection ... one day something short circuits and voila ... I'm curious to see what they will blame this time .. heavy metal music or shoot em up video games ... I guess ya'll need to worry your azzes off about me to then.. I love the music and those are my fav games if I end up playing anything ...

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It truly has nothing to do with gun laws. I know it is cliche, but "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns." The fact is criminals are criminals and they don't give a crap about gun laws. They are already commiting a criminal act, do you really think they will have second thoughts and say, "Hmmm...maybe I shouldn't use a gun in a crime, because it is illegal to have a gun." Hell NO...they will still commit the crime because they are operating outside of societal norms...They are Criminals!!! [sm=headbang.gif]

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

No offense doode but if they were not so readily available, less people would own them ... I use to live in a different country where that was the case and whaddaya know ...
You can buy a shotgun in Meijer's here for christ sakes ... that to me is absolutely INSANE! I just don't see Mr. and Mrs Doe walking through said store knocking off items from their shopping list, milk, butter, bread, SHOTGUN, orange juice, carrots .. etc etc .. And the laws themselves are definitely a part of the problem .. they are ultimately the thing paving the road for the EASE of acquiring a gun, not the CAUSE for acquiring them! And lets face it here, WHEN were those laws written!? Has the world .. I dunno, CHANGED a bit since then!?

To completely rule out the gun laws and the ease of getting some of these weapons as NOThaving an impact is NO different than turning a blind side to the problem and putting on aSTUNNING, and EMBARRASING act of self indunced ignorance based entirely on a how many hundred year old idea that has NEVER been modernized to fit our changing world.

And on another note .. you may sell a gun to someone today .. then 10 years down the road he just looses it ... and starts whacking people with said gun ... SOOOOOOOOOOOOO ... you didn't sell it to a criminal .. but he became one .. now what, how do you propose to handle this!? This could VERY well be the case here ... some event in this guys life trigged something in his head and this model asian american guy just went ape sh!t ... I guess the point is ... you simply just don't know!

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If you would like to take this conversation even further and speculate about the "criminals" getting a hold of guns ... well, lets ... assuming we have 10,000,000 hand guns on the market .. for the sakes of argument ... and if X percent of those guns end up on the black market, one way or another ... well, simple math here tells us .. decrease the initial number and the X factor will drop too ... not really rocket science here folks ...

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Once they formulate a plan and take a substantial step towards accomplishing their crime they are indeed criminals. They are planning an action outside of the law. Whether they had the guns before the they plan the crime or obtain them after they make the plan they are still going to commit a criminal act and they won't give a damn what the law says about owning guns.

If gun laws are implemented to restrict the ownership of firearms or make it harder to purchase them there will be now way to enforce these laws. There are millions of guns in circulation today...owned by law abiding citizens, like ourselves, and by not so law abiding citizens. The only people who are going to follow the laws are the law abiding citizens, not the people living outside of the law. If guns are outlawed you and I will turn in our guns and the criminals will keep theirs. This in turn will create a black market for guns and they will still be available to purchase, just not legally. It would only delay the crime from happening if the person is dead set on commiting the crime.

I believe that the only type of crime we would prevent by outlawing guns is the shooting that is done in a heat of passion. It would give the person time to calm down and possibly prevent the crime from happening in the first place, but as I stated before, if the crime is one that is being planned, the plan will include acquiring guns...

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I'm not getting involved in this argument, because I value both of your opinions very much. I am a gun owner and I have a carry permit. Gotta kkep the "johns" inline with my hoes! lol!! But seriously, I have quite a few handguns for personal protection and a Russian AK for fun. I look at it this way. We have had a few shootings here where some nut case has gone in and shot up a place. If one other person had a gun, they may have been able to stop it. Another story. I have a few patient's that are Pittsburgh cops. I recently heard a story of some guy that was robbed in a parking garage. He handed over his money and was still shot. I myself like to go to events downtown. Pittsburgh is just like other cities. There's alot of scum that may want to take advantage and I simply won't let that happen. I also would like to mention that if one other student at VA rech had a gun, it may not have ended so tragically. I think that no matter what the laws are, criminals will take advantage and the innocent have the right to protect themselves and their property. Boy I guess I did get in in this. lol!!;)

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RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I have no idea how a quoted myself. lol!!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

You do have some very valid points I don't agree with LOL! In all seriousness though, you are missing one very important factor here. You may very well be a law abiding, tax paying, productive member of society today .. hell, you may even help old Mrs Johnson out with her garbage on Wednesday night for all I know .. BUT .

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Hmmmm...intresting point. In the UK we had some nut shoot up a load of nursery kids some years back in Scotland. The goverment banned handguns out right in England. Since the Ban, gun crime in the UK has gone through the roof...dont blame the guns blame the people. Thats my theory, we had the police contact us a few months ago, the reason being someone got murdered with one of our knives. Everything was done legal from our end... But talking to the Cop I asked him y anyone would spend 100 pounds and then go carveup

Basically he replied back saying, he ( murderer)wantedto do it with a blade By the way it was made in the USA . If he could'nt get a blade, he would have got a axe from the local DIY, and so on. Being in the UK,my view is that the USA should never do what the UK did, as it made no diffrence at all, if anything crimegot worse. Blame the person never the weapon!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Agreed SD, but if that student in fact DID have a gun, and shot down theguy doing the killings ... ironically he's no longer "good" either if you want to look at it from an action/consequence aspect. So the second you use that gun, no matter how flippin good you are .. you're still a murderer just like the "bad" guy you killed ... Now what???

I don't argue the unfortunate need for guns and protection but it's a huge amount of trust put in to you for having the concealed carry permit. There is simply no way upon gawds green earth you can forsee your mental state down the road. I had a friend of mine kill himself not too long ago, a couple of years back. 6 months prior to that he was the life of the party so to speak .. a couple of bad turns with a divorce lawyer and his wife taking everything, including the kids he adored. He later found out he had cancer and was terminal, this on top of Hep. Now, he turned on himself after destroying most of his house in a rampage ... this probably being one of the nicest guys I've ever met, awesome with his kids, loved skydiving (and was my mentor for about a year) and the people that came with it ... Now .. should he have been allowed to own a gun or not!? And what if he had turned on his neighbor instead (he hated that b*tch lol) of himself, gunned her azz down .. To say it like Racerboy did to where only the "criminals" are the issue here is to ignore half the issue .. it's a simpleminded approach to a problem that deserves a far more thought through approach than to generalize bad/good ... people are not either or, they are both and they are neither ... you can't deal with blackor whites, you have to deal with black AND whites... gray scales are a construct of a feeble mind better left alone ... we all have good and bad in us .. people fail to see this and generalize entirely too much!

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While I agree with you partially here, again, it's a generalized aspect. I DON'T think guns should be banned at all .. I think the controls we have in this country are outright ridiculous however. And the amount of guns produced and sold are downright atrocious! Who the hell needs 37 hand guns, and assault rifles? Unless you plan on going to waryou simply don't have any reasons for owning huge quantities of them like many at least I know do. If you limit what comes out from the manufacturer you limit what can end up on the black market ... and if you limit what gets out on the black market .. maybe, JUST MAYBE, one of those kids who got killed today would still be alive cuz this sonofab!tch couldn't get a hold of a handgun .. see my point here? It's a double edged sword, for sure ...

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I agree Sam. The problem is they won't blame the shooter. Some people will find a way to blame the government or society for not finding a way to help this person before he did this. Some things are just too effed up to understand.


My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved in this horrible action.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

There's no doubt who's to blame here, the guy pulling the trigger. Unfortunately there are more aspects of any incident than just the end result Black ... I in no way think it's the governments fault, the manufacturer of the weapons fault, or whoever made the bullets ... it's a clear cut case of lone gunman goes apesh!t .. unfortunately with an exceptionally abundant amount of "equipment" not only in this country but others as well ... well ... forgive me for saying this but ... if the gun wasn't apart of the equation .. the guy would've looked pretty f*cken stupid running around screaming "bang, you're dead" ... If anyone is to blame it's all of us for being for not being able to resolve an issue without resorting to violence .. then again, we're "cizivilized" ... allow me to vomit uncontrollably at that load of bull!!! LOL!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

We can come up with a million situationswhy certain people shouldn't own guns and have used them to hurt themselves or somebody else, and as weaponsgalore put it there are a million different weapons people can use to kill, maim, injure, etc. I seem to remember where some fertilizer was used to blow up a building in Oklahoma City.

The bottom line is if people want to kill other people they will find a way to do it, and then me and the boys will hunt them down and put them behind bars, but I digress. People kill people and that is the bottom line. **** will happen and the only one to blame is the one who did the killing.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Very sad....

Campus Gun Ban Disarmed Virginia Victims
VA Tech has "blood on its hands" as gun control advocates milk tragic events
Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Monday, April 16, 2007

A gun ban recently enforced by Virginia Tech campus prevented over thirty victims of today's mass shooting from defending themselves against the killer, and yet gun control advocates are already politicizing this morning's tragic events to pull the lever for mass gun control.
Virginia is a concealed carry state and yet Virginia Tech campus recently enforced a policy prohibiting "unauthorized possession, storage or control" of firearms on campus.
According to gun rights activists such as Aaron Zelman of Jews For The Preservation of Firearms, VA Tech has "blood on its hands" for disarming the victims and other students who could potentially have stopped the killer in his tracks in the three hour time period he was allowed to carry out his rampage by cowardly police who hid behind trees as the carnage ensued.
Reuters is already disseminating the talking points for an imminent propaganda coup against the Second Amendment, and yet it was the stripping of that right to bear arms that ensured today's death toll represents the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.
"Advocates of wider gun controls said the availability of guns in the United States had made it easier for people to commit murder everywhere, including in schools and colleges," reports Reuters, with no mention of the fact that had the victims been allowed to exercise their concealed carry rights, the casualty figures may have been far lower.
Students at VA Tech are already slamming the pathetic response on behalf of the police, who locked down the school and sat back as the killer was able to carefully pick off his targets.
"What happened today this was ridiculous. And I don't know what happened or what was going through this guy's mind," student Jason Piatt told CNN. "But I'm pretty outraged and I'll say on the record I'm pretty outraged that someone died in a shooting in a dorm at 7 o'clock in the morning and the first e-mail about it — no mention of locking down campus, no mention of canceling classes — they just mention that they're investigating a shooting two hours later at 9:22."
He added: "That's pretty ridiculous and meanwhile, while they're sending out that e-mail, 22 more people got killed."

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Yeah, that's another great approach ... let them kill THEN we do something .. like put them in jail .. hell ... we can put all of their kind in the same place, dump a crap load of guns and ammo in there and problem solved right!? The problem is never dealt with, only responded to ... very simple logic in effect here!

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Alrighty then Zyne...since you have they key on how to save the world...why don't you lay it out for us here. You have obviously thought this through and have some solution that the rest of the world has overlooked...so lay it on us. How do we stop people from killing people?

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

We can go on debating this forever, so I digress. Bottom line is the situation sucks and it was a tragic event. I wish there was a simple way to solve the problem, but I know there is not.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Yep its a cruel world, looking at the whole picture, I just cant see how you could have stopped what happpened today. Where theres a will theres a way!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I just think its horrible and my thoughts and prayers go out to every family member.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

As a Cop it pains me now to agree that the only people & guns that fall under gun control will be the law abiding citizens. Nationally speaking, criminal gun owners, for the most part obtain their guns via illegal means.

Gun Control Regs. only govern those who buy their weapons legally, following the regulations!

Now, Assault weapons are a different deal for me. They were created for one reason - KILL HUMAN BEINGS. So those who feel the need to own them as collectors, either better render them inoperative & keep them securely locked away! Now, it wouldnt' eliminate the Criminal from obtaining them completely, but itcould curtail their presence.

I'm certainly no expert, just my 2.5 cents.

David

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Not gonna get all involved ..but Guns is what this country won it's indendence with and theyhave been around for over 200 hundred years here in the USA..Creeps and criminals will use anything to kill or rob with..guns are easier and quicker..Don't mean guns are any worse that they were 200 years ago...just that today's society glorifys the reckless use of them in the movies and in music and there is more people that are just crazy enough to use them with reckless disregard to human life..fix that sh!t and you won't have to worry about guns....Now I have guns to protect my me and family from these guys...Guns don't kill, people kill...

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I agree with ZYNE 200%.
just have a look to the crime statistics in ythe USA and in Europe!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Ditto!!!

That's all I'm gonna say on this touchy subject.

I just feel for the victims and their families!!!:(

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I've said it and I'll say it again though it will have ZERO use as you simply don't want to hear it Racer .. limit the amount produced and you limit what ends up on the black market ... there's simple logic in this that is refused by ya'll because of YOUR take on the matter. Again, you can't steal and resale what doesn't exist. It appears as to me as long as ya'll get a chance to buy your guns, screw the downsides of the matter.
I hear all this talk about the criminals but when the point is made that people change from good to bad so to speak, I hear absolutely NO opinions on the matter which just tells me that your own approach to this is about as thought through as "I want my guns" and left at that.

Personally I don't understand the mentality of "So I can protect myself from the bad guy" ... the second you shoot and kill a person, you're a murderer as well, and yes, that makes you a bad guy. You simply can not remove yourself from the consequences of your actions because "the other guy pulled his gun first" ... it's a chicken **** mentality which unfortunately holds up in the courts in this country. Should you do nothing and get killed yourself? No, never said that .. but you should be treated according to the law when you do. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this to but hey, opinions are like azzholes right, we all have one and they all stink ...

And Thank You JM, another fellow european who knows the difference .. glad to see that! And to the couple of people who actually PM:ed to say it's cool to see someone make a good argument for something and stand by it .. thanks too :)

Bottom line here is .. problem will never be resolved as long as people don't want it resolved and that's ultimately the issue here .. and for the record I never once said remove them all .. I said LIMIT production so yes, you can still have your guns in my eyes .. there's an unfortunate need for them .. just not in the quantities they are produced .... we spend far more $ on figuring out better and more precise ways of killing each other instead of putting the time, effort, and money on the things that really matter ... but then again, there's no money to be made from for example homelessness so why not produce a more effective killing device instead ... lop sided here folks .. and totally lacking morals ...

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Ironically so does "good" people who flip or simply gets put in a situation to where that's their only out ... can at least ONE of you gun libs actually acknowledge this fact and realize it's not as clear cut as you think it is. And no den, guns don't kill people .. people with guns/weapons of any kind do. It requires human interaction and as long as we're "civilized" and "intelligent" it's a concious decision ... that line is a typical crap excuse to allow it to continue when in fact it once again serves no other purpose than to eliminate the consequence from the action!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

this is exactly why I use my right to carry a concealed weapon at all times, except where prophibited...

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And hand guns and your plain vanilla hunting rifle or shotgun is designed for what now? This is yet another excuse that simply doesn't hold up .. a 9mm pistol is designed to KILL just as much as an M16 .. nowhere near as effective obviously but lets at least be honest with their intent instead of making excuses even a blind man can see through ..

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Yet another exceptionally lop sided article that p*ssyfoots around the true issuebut capitalizing on recent very tragic events ... sickening if you ask me! The day guns are allowed in school society in my opinion has failed both parents and kids and I'll tell you one thing .. I'd pull my kid out of a school like that so fast you don't even know wtf happened.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Here's how I look at it. Statistics can be made to prove or disprove anything and I'm still not taking sides. I don't know racer, I'm sure that he's a good bro. Zyne I know is an awesome dude. I just feel that in this crazy world, one has the right to be able to protect oneself and my method is with a .45. I think that if someone is going to hurt others, they will find away.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

DITTO Joe!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Agreed SD. If anyone recalls our posts I never once said to remove guns as a whole and I've called them an unfortunate necessity. I too recognize the need for them, an unfortunate need because of how we are as humans and the fact that we are simply incapable of resolving issues without resorting to violence in many cases. You can take a look at the wars we've had across the globe lets say in the last 100 years and see what I mean. My point I was TRYING to get acrossed here was regarding the QUANTITY of guns we have, not just here in the US but as a whole. I think we can pretty much stick a firearm in every man, woman, and child on the planet and still have enough left over to use as spares. To turn around and complain about the black market weapons that we end up with in my humnle opinion is just wrong. We've generated the market by spewing out quantities of these items and the more we spew up the more will end up on the black market. If you lower the supply on the legal side the amount of guns that CAN make it to the black market will also decrease. Obviously not at first since the market is so saturated. And I will admit that when I lived over seas in a country were guns were simply illegal unless you were a cop or in the service ... I still owned a gun. It was as a result of gawking down the sight of a 9mm Beretta at a bar, the guy didn't like me looking at his woman. I was petrified after that and ended up getting me a short nosed beretta myself, I paid approx $550 dollars for it on the black market. I took it in to the cops before I moved to the States because I figured just because (my opinion here guys, not jabbin' at anyone ok) I was an idiot doesn't mean I have to enable someone else to be as dumb as I was. And as time has progressed and I've gotten older and a whole hell of a lot wisermy own philosophies and understandings have changed. I'm one of those people who simply don't understand the needed for an armed conflict of any kind. And no matter how you twist and turn things around, the second you pull that trigger and kill someone you become the same person you tried to defend yourself from, regardless of situation. While I understand the reasons behind this action, protecting your own well being, I still honestly don't agree with it. Sure, you would not have been put in that position had it not been for that person but ... if I lose my job I don't have the right to go rob someone and then blame my employer for putting me in that position to where I felt it was necessary to committ this crime. And that's what it is and should be treated as, a crime. Murdering in self defense is still murder, I don't care how much they try to polish that turd or reassign the accountability ... you hold 50% of it yourself, you made a concious decision to pull that trigger and you should be tried as a criminal and sentenced accordingly... after all .. we are all "equal" in front of the law .. the biggest load of BS I've heard in my 30 years of breathing... Now, with this said, I really don't want to see anyone in jail here LOL!

And thank you for the comment SD, much appreciated!

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

Yeah that is a warped comentary...I can't believe anybody could imagine that everyone carring a gun on campus would have stopped this...I remember the Sniper at University of Tx, Austin,with a hunting rifle on the bell tower picking off people..I don't think anyone on the ground being armed, would of made a difference there either.

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

I definitely agree with you on that one Den. Besides, I think I'd rather deal with one whacko with a gun than 200 freaked out students with guns trying to take him out. Lets face it, few people are capable to keep calm in extreme situations ... and that plus 2000 rounds in the combined 200 guns ...no thanks! Seems the statistical aspect here tells me I stand a much higher risk of gettin' my azz shot!

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"Unfortunate need". Veryexcellent useage of words my friend. Isn't that ashame that our society requires a need for us to have to protect and defend ourselves against evil people.

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While I agree with that statement to a great extent butI think the usage of "evil people" is somewhat generalized. Evil is a matter of perception and in situations of this nature no one side is evil or good, they are both and they are neither. No one person can be deemed as evil by anyone but themselves. Perception is personal and while I for example perceived Hitler as evil, I'm sure Eva Braun did not ... so who's right!? Neither and both.

I think however it's very tragic that we as humans can not find a common ground to stand on and resolve our differences in peaceful fashion. I realize the ridiculousness level of that statement but I like that particular pipe dream. I think we're entirely too self absorbed and too busy marveling at our own implied magnificence to really see just how wrong we really are in doing so. We find more ways to kill each other and the few times we admit mistakes on a global level they are seldom learned from! We may be an intelligent people .. but that doesn't make us smart! And as I tend to say quite a bit, The intelligence of humans today will be their ultimate downfall tomorrow .... and I truly believe it. You don't have to look very far to see this .. Go back about 500 years then kick the clock back in to gear .. see what "modern" man has done to one and other ... I dunno about you but I'm not particularly impressed with our track record and it's not getting any better as time goes on.
The ironic paradox here is that while we consider ourselves civilized and modern today, we're actually worsetowards one and otherthan what history "teaches" us aboutback in the cave man days when wewere "uncivilized" by modern standards ... And no, before someone states I suggest we go back to living in caves n crap, no that's not at all what I ment by that example. It implies the arrogance and the magnificence I mentioned earlier ...

RE: 31 dead in VA tech shooting
 

My opinion...

I know that prohibition really worked well for stopping the flow of booze in the country.. and no one ever smokes weed or uses cocaine since they're illegal too. Taking guns away from people would just create a new "illegal Market".

Hell, this country was built on spent shell casings. Like it or don't like it, guns are as American as apple pie. The problem with people like this shooter are that too many parents care about themselves, and don't give a rats ass about the children they produce. Stick 'em in front of a TV, and leave us a lone... then wonder why they have no social skills, .. and hate everyone .. or can't cope with everyday life.

That gun didn't lead him into killing everyone.. something in his fawked up head did.. probably as a result of never learning how to deal with anything. He could have easly made a bomb from basic stuff down at the grocery store.. then what .. are we going to ban all the little everyday chemicals it took to make it too?

Too much time wasted going after the WRONG problem if you ask me. Watch a Maury show... how freakin' many times are the shows about people who don't even know who the dads of their kids are.. that's more sick than anything you find in a murder scene to me. We have literaly hundereds of thousands of kids out there that are fawked from the get go.. but when they do something terrible, we'll get in line to blame everything except their screwed up parents who were too busy yelling at each other to even notice they were around. We have people in this country who I wouldn't trust with a task as simple as brushing their teeth, yet they have 10 kids ... with 10 different dads, who they never see, while mom smokes crack.. ... etc etc..

But, let's ban guns so they don't shoot anyone. [&:]I guess if they just break into an old lady's house one night and rape and strangle her, that's acceptable since it's only one old lady.. and no gun was used.

Fix the real problems, and guns won't be an issue. I've owned guns all my lfe, and I have as of yet to shoot anyone.. yet anyway. LOL