Sorry about that Doc. Just trying to show theres not much difference in the IAT's. I have an open air filter on my Lightning and theres not a noticeable difference. Don't have enough interest to start a new thread.

 

Thank you VTC...............my point all along. Myth busted!
If you do the math, my 8th grader can, and I have,....... ooohhh that metal pipe can get hot, don't mean chit!

I didn't bother with what 3" diameter pipe material is used in the almost $400.00 GM performance system either. [&o]

As I have said, plastic is used because it is cheap. It ain't real if it ain't steel!

 

Trey; now we can.


08Alpha; my comment was not directed at you, only your suggestion. And ...it was a good suggestion for a new thread BTW.

 

No feelings hurt here Doc, my skin is a little thicker than that.
Can't wait for V8 release, quit arguing and start shipping.

 

[sm=funnypostabove.gif] This weekend is easter, so I will temporarily beSUPER FAMILY MAN! I can't even pull off working late this friday either. [&o]

Oh well, there is always next week.

 

I just got mine in the mail, it's going to have to wait until the 29th to get installed. But as soon as I get it on, I'll let you know.
I was just throwing my 2 cents at his suggestion, if he doesn't like your setup he could modify it.

 

The suggestion was to include a port to make the product more universal like what the competition does. This way you have one product that is more universal and reduces overhead.

Here's what your google search didn't find:

1) LT1 F-body has engine coolant routed to the throttle body through small hoses. When the coolant lines were bypassed, the car picked up 5 - 10 hp at the wheels. The 275 HP LT1s were putting down about about 220 HP at the wheels and picking up 5 hp is a 2.2% gain. The old rule of thumb is that for every 10F increase in air temp you lose 1% power. Just working backwards the air must have been heated by about 22F passing through the throttle body. The LT1 is a 5.7 L and the peak HP occurs closer to 5k RPM which means the air was moving faster than in your example. Also, the cross sectional area of the TB is less than 3" which means the air is even moving faster yet. Considering the TB is only a few inches thick and the air was moving considerably faster (at least a factor of two) than in your example how did the air get heated ~20F?

2) At the track you'll see people with ice bags on their aluminum intake to cool it down to get better ETs and MPH. If the air moves so fast that it doesn't matter what the intake it made from, why does the ice help?

3) Another example is the intake manifold on the L98 and the benefit of running a cooler thermostat.






Real estate reduction by reducing the quote of VTCanyon06's post #69 one page back.
Irrelevant data on LT1/L98 motors and drag racing ice bags left in tact as posted.

 

Here is my suggestion: go develop, market and sell your own system for whatever you want. Out of cheap plastic with aftermarket ice bags.


We all realize you have superior intelligence and know it all about everything and we are not worthy of your time.


Oh, and dude, the throttle body is bolted to the engine, that is what's called heat CONDUCTION. You are now on iggy. Have a nice day.

 

"The steel tube has to conduct more heat than a plastic tube - its just physics. Says who??? You mentioned: has to "conduct" heat more than plastic. You hit your own nail on the head. Heat is transferred by many means, conductive heat transfer is not one of them here."

My point is the heat coming up from the exhaust manifold heats the metal tube after parked for a while or during stationary idling. The warm metal tube then transfers its stored heat to the air rushing though.

If you have an OBD2 data viewer. Run the H3 for a 30-45 minutes. Park on a hill while the H3 is pointing upward and monitor the IATs (inlet air temperature) while the H3 is idling and you'll see the temperature rising. If the H3 has draws outside cold air from the fender area, why is the air getting warmer in a short time. What is heating up the air? What thermal dynamics are occurring? This is just the air temperature at the MAF - what do you think the air temperature is at the TB?


"There is probably not too much heating of the air through the tube - perhaps 5 F??? more than a plastic tube. Great theory, but no data? Have you measured or calculated the velocity of the intake charge at all rpms given the combustion of the 3.5L and 3.7L............if you have, then you know how long that air is in the
13 7/8" long metal tube at 2000 rpm and above. Let me use the technical term ....not very friggin long! I have done a wee bit of testing (I did not fall off the turnip cart yesterday) and when comparing the MAF input reading from the H3 to the throttle body end of the AirDoc pipe (I made a sensor from a second bosch MAF), I could not reliably measure any heat increase beyond margin of error (3/10ths of one degree) at any rpm over 2000, but let us assume it is one or two degrees? I'm thinking there is a lot of theory going out the window???"

So you took the thermistor from another MAF and placed in into the pipe near the throttle body? You must have had something that read the thermistor and was properly calibrated. I guess you took the H3 for a ride with this setup and measured the results compared to the IAT readings? Honestly, the IAT and ECT are only good for relative before and after measurements not necessary good for comparing one thermistor to another. The accuracy is not nearly as good as a thermocouple. Surprisingly, you didn't mention this testing when I first brought up the subject.


"Anybody doing bracket racing, 1/8 mile powder puff racing, F.A.S.T. drag series, any qualifying time runs, any racing with their Hummer? No, hummmm........heatsoaking seems to be irrelevant."

Are you saying that heatsoaking does occur, but isn't an issue since no one is bracket racing the H3?


"Let me make it abundantly clear. The reason GM, and most intake kit makers use rubber and/or plastic is because it is CHEAP. Plain and simple.
AirDocIntakes uses steel because it is far superior in strength, durability, function, and it looks cool too!"

Exotic high temperature plastics are expensive - I'm not sure how expensive compared to aluminum or steel. Aside from cost, the plastic intake manifolds have many benefits such as immunity from heatsoaking, less weight, easier to seal since they can conform more than aluminum, etc.

Of all the aftermarket intakes, I have seen plastic, aluminum, and stainless steel. Right now, I can't recall a steel intake product that is not in thermal contact with the engine. Wonder why? Steel rusts. Condensation can form and puddle and small flakes of rust can flake off into the engine. Coatings crack and paints flake, and any coating and paint has to be compatible with fuel vapors and oil mist which is also challenging.

Doc, take a step back and look at your tone and style in your posts and replies to me. You are in business. How do you want your potential customers to view you? Do you want them to feel that they will get some $hit from you if they have

 

Here is a complete cut and paste from the AEM website: (http://67.59.157.230/Faqs.aspx?CategoryID=31) I don't technically agree with everything that they say, but this is how they responded to the material selection question.

Q: Why does AEM use aluminum for its intake piping?
A: Our Chief Engineer John Concialdi provides an explanation of the difference between Aluminum vs. Steel vs. Plastic in inlet piping:

The issue of heat absorption with an intake system has a degree of validity, however we have found that too much emphasis is placed on material selection, instead of the real issue of tuning the system. Our systems feature a unique shape and diameter because this is what we found to make the most useable torque and horsepower for each individual application in testing. However, for the purposes of this discussion, we will limit it to why we choose to make our systems from aluminum and the effects of heat absorption on all materials. If you do not wish to review all of this information right now, a quick synopsis of this discussion is outlined in the following bullet points, with complete topic discussions below:
We use aluminum to eliminate any chance of the system rusting, and it's lighter than steel
We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct
Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power
The rate at which air travels through the inlet path under open throttle, when one is asking the engine for maximum power, negates the effect of material heat soak, regardless of the material
We use aluminum—or a combination of aluminum and plastic plenums for throttle-body-injected applications that require a special plenum—for every intake we produce. This eliminates any chance of rust occurring on the inside of the inlet pipe. We have seen chrome-plated steel systems whose inner diameter became rusted over time, causing flakes of rust to travel along the inlet path. We also choose aluminum because of its lightweight properties. Heavier components place higher loads on the brackets they are attached to—or even worse, to the pipes they are attached to. We combine our lightweight aluminum design with a flexible coupling device we call a soft mount that connects the intake system to the body of the vehicle. In addition to the soft mount, we use doublers at the point where the mounting bracket is welded to the pipe for additional strength.

We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct. Although we use the best plastic material for our plenums, it is still not as resilient and does not retain the visual appeal of aluminum over long-term use. Because we have to use plastic on throttle body applications, we take extra precautions to ensure that the aluminum retaining ring that attaches to the throttle body is anchored securely into the plastic plenum; this is done by making an interlocking mechanical link between the plastic and aluminum.

Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel, or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power. We have found that the tuning of the pipe, in addition to providing the coolest inlet air source, are the keys to making useable power. We perform engine inlet-air-temp studies when developing each application to determine the coolest location for sourcing inlet air. In addition to this, we determine the safest location for the inlet source to protect it from highly dusty conditions and water. To this end, we provide a stainless-steel heat shield to help minimize heat soak into the inlet