RE: Will GM Survive?
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/26/2008 3:53:20 PM
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NEFirewood
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As far as I can tell, the primary reason why we have $4 gas is because we import 60% of our oil from the middle east, russia and other countries who may not have the USA''s best interests in mind. So who''s fault is that? I hear stories on the news about alternative energy sources. Like what? Solar powered cars? Hydrogen fuel cells? If it were possible, doable, economical, and there was a market, people would be building them right now. But who wants to ride to work at 5mph? Or forget to "plug in the car" at night and not be able to go into work?
So he we are in 2008, competing with India, China and the third world for oil from Saudia Arabia, the same country that created the 19 9/11 hijackers. When I think of things like this, I say we are so stupid as Americans we deserve everything we are getting.
But wait a second, there are alternaitve fuel sources that we know about right now, that will help us solver many of our energy problems (carbon footprint which I personally think is a lot of crap, greenhouse gases, and dependance on foreign fuel). What about nuclear power?
So in the end, we''re too scared to drill in the artic national wildlife refuge because it''s some kind of primordial anti-human zone. We can''t drill offshore for oil because everyone is scared to death of an oil spill, and we can''t have nuclear power because people have seen Chernobyl on the news and are afraid of it and there''s always the "not in my backyard" argument. There isn''t a politician that is "really" willing to face up to what needs to be done. We can eliminate our foreign need for oil with nuclear power plants that replace the oil burning plants all across the country.
The environmental movement in 2008 is no longer about the environment. It''s a pop-cult religion and "An Inconvenient Truth" is thier bible. I like the environment just as much as everyone else does. I enjoy tooling through the woods and finding a beautiful little place to have a picnic and then come home and savor my moment. I leave a place behind just as beautiful as what I found for the next person to enjoy. That''s my mantra. I want to leave a world better off for my daughter. But I refuse to accept science sans critical thought, meaning modern environmentalism.
I drive to work in the Northeast every day and people are still driving big SUV''s. I still see plenty of H3''s on the road. Where I live is on a very steep hill where the road is very windy (think Lombard Street in San Francisco). Most of the time in the winter, the plows won''t even plow the snow. Every single resident of my street, without exception, owns a foor wheel drive vehicle. I just can''t for the life of me picture thousands of Prius''s spinning off the road with just a few inches of snow. I recently saw one on a flat bed after an accident. I can still remember seeing with my own eyes how much body damage and corrosion took place from the batteries after an impact. I keep trying to do in my head the calculus of what is better? Acid from batteries leaking in our landfills or gasoline? There''s no right answer.
So GM makes the Chevy Volt, problem solved, they make billions, etc etc. But wait a sec, electric cars are pulled out of the closet every few years like the answer to all of our problems. No one ever buys them though. Why? Maybe because most places people want to go are far enough away (like our jobs for one) that we can''t justify cars that need recharging all the time. Do you think employers are going to give employees free electricity to juice up thier cars while they are at work without passing this cost on to thier customers?
And then there''s Hummer. I''m a Hummer owner, so I''m biased. But where was it written in stone that Hummer is supposed to be some mass market car with wide appeal for all?? Not many people can afford $70K cars unless its leased and gas is $1 a gallon forever. So some dimbulb who can barely afford to just make the lease payments in 2004 buys a new H2, probably living from paycheck to paycheck, and now reality has caught up with his checkbook and he''s screwed. That''s why I see so many H2''s on lots with discounts and low mileage. That''s how I bought mine. Bottom line, if you need to know how much an H2 costs to gas up of the mpg, then you probably can''t afford it, so move on and get the prius. It''s a special purpose vehicle in a niche market. If GM is either (a) too stupid to realize this or (b) can''t figure out how to make money on low production vehicles, well then maybe they are doomed or Hummer would be better off in other hands. How many years did Chevrolet keep building the Corvette from 1953 with a loss until it finally made money. So see GM already knows how to make tons of money on a car with low production quantities. Hummer needs someone with passion to run the operation, not just another MBA bonehead more worried about his own McMansion.
Now that was a rant!!!
Angela
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/27/2008 6:22:22 PM
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3hummers
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Nice read
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/27/2008 6:26:40 PM
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Gunner_45
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Great thread.
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 2:26:05 AM
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Steve #1
Posts: 411
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From: TEXAS
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ORIGINAL: NEFirewood
As far as I can tell, the primary reason why we have $4 gas is because we import 60% of our oil from the middle east, russia and other countries who may not have the USA''''''''''''''''s best interests in mind. So who''''''''''''''''s fault is that? <snip>
First off, in the US we have been so spoiled with cheep oil that we are convinced that $4 is expensive. When you adjust for inflation, we are just popping out of the dip we''''ve been in for the past 15 years. Anybody that didn’t think that it would end some day deserves what they are getting.
Countries that are selling oil to the US and other countries don’t have there best interests in mind. Many of them have fewer reserves than we do. Do you think we’ll be dumb enough to sell oil to them when they run out? Maybe, but they’ll be paying for it. Is this the best for you and me today? No, but our children will appreciate it. Use oil from the rest of the world today, when it gets depleted or they figure out that they shouldn’t sell it, and then we’ll get it out of out back yard.
So he we are in 2008, competing with India, China and the third world for oil from Saudia Arabia, the same country that created the 19 9/11 hijackers. <snip>
The men who hijacked the planes on September 11, 2001 were created by al-Qaeda. The only tie in to Saudi Arabia is that Osama bin Laden didn’t like the fact that US forces were there. Why were US forces there? They were asked to be there by the Saudi Arabian government and they were being financially supported by the Saudi Arabian government. A mad man was responsible for what happened on that day not the government or citizens of Saudi Arabia.
So in the end, we''''''''''''''''re too scared to drill in the artic national wildlife refuge because it''''''''''''''''s some kind of primordial anti-human zone. We can''''''''''''''''t drill offshore for oil because everyone is scared to death of an oil spill, and we can''''''''''''''''t have nuclear power because people have seen Chernobyl on the news and are afraid of it and there''''''''''''''''s always the "not in my backyard" argument. There isn''''''''''''''''t a politician that is "really" willing to face up to what needs to be done.
Not yet... but that''''''''s ok.
We can eliminate our foreign need for oil with nuclear power plants that replace the oil burning plants all across the country.
Oil burning power plants? That''''''''s a whopping 1.6 % electricity production. Nearly half the electricity produced in the US is from coal...... US coal.
<snip>
If GM is either (a) too stupid to realize this or (b) can''''''''''''''''t figure out how to make money on low production vehicles, well then maybe they are doomed or Hummer would be better off in other hands. How many years did Chevrolet keep building the Corvette from 1953 with a loss until it finally made money. So see GM already knows how to make tons of money on a car with low production quantities. Hummer needs someone with passion to run the operation, not just another MBA bonehead more worried about his own McMansion.
But HUMMER is an environmental black eye weather it is deserved or not. For a company that''''''''s trying to up there "green" image, it''''''''s a good reason to dump a brad whose future market is questionable. They get two birds with one stone.
Now that was a rant!!!
Angela
Steve
< Message edited by Steve #1 -- 6/29/2008 2:41:38 AM >
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 9:58:20 AM
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ajnoe3
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Hummer will survive, but it may not be under GM''s Ownership. I do hope that it stays in American hands for ''brand credibility'' as well as UAW Workers.
As for this other discussion that has spawned, I don''t like to get political on automotive message boards but here goes! Drilling for Oil Domestically will take nearly a decade to produce any significant production level. Even at full production, with investment costs related to site drilling, we could only lower the price of oil by around ONE DOLLAR a barrel. This would not lead to ANY change at the pump and would lead to no more than 5% less dependance on foreign oil sources. The money that we would spend over the next decade to accomplish this could be invested in better ethanol sources similar to Brazil, who is nearly 100% energy independent. Why waste money, bring any harm to our nation''s natural beauty, and waste time putting off solving a problem that will come back to us in the future? We should stop worrying about gas prices and start worrying about our energy future! This government has been dragging the ball since Ronald Reagan was elected in the 1980''s. He may have been a great communicator but he was a do-nothing President and left us with more problems that we had before. You may not like the idea of ''taxes'' since most of us are well-off, but let''s get real! We''re in massive debt in this nation because a President decided to cut taxes during a war and unless you want to leave that debt to your children and grandchildren it''s time to face the music. Most of you will probably vote for John McCain because of predispositions, but take another look and you''ll see (even if you don''t want to see) that we can''t afford another President who cuts taxes on us (well-off Americans) and spends like the devil. The job of your government is not to create problems, it''s to help you solve them and protect your liberties. we must solve the infrastructure and energy problems of this country NOW or we''ll have a much greater problem at a later stage. I''m willing to pay my part because it''s the American thing to do, not the selfish thing to do, and I hope that everyone else starts acting like Americans again too.
P.S. don''t take any of this personal as we can all disagree and still get along, that''s what America is supposed to be about: Ideas!
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 10:06:12 AM
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ajnoe3
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I can''t figure out why my keyboard keeps putting " instead of a regular apostrophe (by the way).
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 11:59:45 AM
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3hummers
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The job of the government is not to solve our problems, it is to get out of our way. ( Federal government is for national defense, intersate commerce, etc not making sure I have health care or a retirement.) That is my personal responsibility. Not sure where you get your facts and figures on oil production, supply, benefit but your statistics are incorrect and the 10 year deal, well if Clinton had not put ANWR off limits 11 years ago ANWR oil would be available today. I agree that we should not waste time on working on alternative forms of energy but to break this country in the process is ridiculous. Its like killing the patient to cure the disease. Drill now, off shore and ANWR, use the shale oil resources, etc to bridge the gap until nuke plants, solar, wind, hydrogen, etc can all be developed and implemented. While people are losing their homes, cars, etc you don''''t want to try to cut their fuel costs?
As to taxes I disagree. I pay enough in taxes now. My company pays enough in taxes now. I am sick and tired of watching the government waste MY money. The more they tax the more people don''''t work for me, the less I invest in new projects because the risk/reward scenario gets bleaker, the more people don''''t work. Great economic scenario there.
Reagan ended the greatest threat this country has ever faced and you call him a do nothing President??? Steals any credibility from the rest of your argument to make a statement like that.
This country has had a massive debt for decades through Repub & Demo. administrations. The tax cuts spurred the huge economic boom that we have gone through and that probably enabled many of us to buy our Hummers. If you understand economic history, economics and cause and effect you understand the impact of tax decreases on the economy. If you don''''t, vote for Barack and he will take care of your discretionary income for you.
You say McCain will "spend like the devil" but apparently think Obama is going to pay for universal health care, SS for all, etc with what????? good wishes and platitudes? BO is going to sweet talk all of our problems away. Hey sounds like typical political BS. I don''''t agree with McCain on a number of issues but I disagree with BO on a whole lot more. Give Pelosi, Murtha, Schumer and Kennedy a lib in the White House and we are all screwed.
< Message edited by 3hummers -- 6/29/2008 12:11:06 PM >
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 2:44:16 PM
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3hummers
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My friends in the oil and gas business tell me the refineries are running at capacity except for down time for repairs and maint.
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 4:21:53 PM
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Intercooled
Posts: 244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3hummers
The job of the government is not to solve our problems, it is to get out of our way. ( Federal government is for national defense, intersate commerce, etc not making sure I have health care or a retirement.) That is my personal responsibility. Not sure where you get your facts and figures on oil production, supply, benefit but your statistics are incorrect and the 10 year deal, well if Clinton had not put ANWR off limits 11 years ago ANWR oil would be available today. I agree that we should not waste time on working on alternative forms of energy but to break this country in the process is ridiculous. Its like killing the patient to cure the disease. Drill now, off shore and ANWR, use the shale oil resources, etc to bridge the gap until nuke plants, solar, wind, hydrogen, etc can all be developed and implemented. While people are losing their homes, cars, etc you don''''''''t want to try to cut their fuel costs?
As to taxes I disagree. I pay enough in taxes now. My company pays enough in taxes now. I am sick and tired of watching the government waste MY money. The more they tax the more people don''''''''t work for me, the less I invest in new projects because the risk/reward scenario gets bleaker, the more people don''''''''t work. Great economic scenario there.
Reagan ended the greatest threat this country has ever faced and you call him a do nothing President??? Steals any credibility from the rest of your argument to make a statement like that.
This country has had a massive debt for decades through Repub & Demo. administrations. The tax cuts spurred the huge economic boom that we have gone through and that probably enabled many of us to buy our Hummers. If you understand economic history, economics and cause and effect you understand the impact of tax decreases on the economy. If you don''''''''t, vote for Barack and he will take care of your discretionary income for you.
You say McCain will "spend like the devil" but apparently think Obama is going to pay for universal health care, SS for all, etc with what????? good wishes and platitudes? BO is going to sweet talk all of our problems away. Hey sounds like typical political BS. I don''''''''t agree with McCain on a number of issues but I disagree with BO on a whole lot more. Give Pelosi, Murtha, Schumer and Kennedy a lib in the White House and we are all screwed.
I agree with you brother! I''m no big fan of McCain but voting for anything else will lead to the destruction of our constitution. ajone3, you stated that we are all well off. Well, news for you, I''m not well off!! I pay enough in taxes! I''m self employed and pay my FICA in double! I pay for my familys health insurnace and every other so called benefit that others take for granted. I get taxed on my income, my investments and just about everything else that I pay for day to day. I pay my part and shouldnt have to pay anymore, especially for people that pay nothing and get everything! GM will survive and so will I. Our dollars may not go as far but we will get through.
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 8:18:22 PM
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ajnoe3
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ORIGINAL: 3hummers
The job of the government is not to solve our problems, it is to get out of our way.
I didn''t say that was their job, in contrast I said their job is to ''help''. The government should encourage solutions to state''s problems and introducing new ideas on how we solve our problems. Obviously we disagree on other things such as healthcare, and that''s okay, but the solution is not found on the path we''ve been headed on for the past 20+ years.
Not sure where you get your facts and figures on oil production, supply, benefit but your statistics are incorrect and the 10 year deal, well if Clinton had not put ANWR off limits 11 years ago ANWR oil would be available today.
My ''stats'' are industry experts telling it like it is, not listening to a White House Press Briefing.
One of the thousand articles on this subject: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2546114820080625
I agree that we should not waste time on working on alternative forms of energy but to break this country in the process is ridiculous.
By drilling off of our coastlines more than we currently do we''re not going to alleviate this problem, so we''re not ''breaking this country''.
don''''''''t want to try to cut their fuel costs?
Yes, but I''m realistic and listen to industry experts, not the White House.
As to taxes I disagree. I pay enough in taxes now. My company pays enough in taxes now. I am sick and tired of watching the government waste MY money.
I agree, but you cannot increase spending dramatically, i.e. for a WAR, and decrease revenue. Supply-side ''Reagan-omics'' has not worked because people have failed to invest in AMERICAN ventures in favor of foreign industry where profit margins are higher due to development. If the tax incentive is to send work overseas and invest overseas, the wealthy will do just that and this will lead to a larger divide between the rich and the poor. Lower pay in the working and middle-class will lead to lower revenues in industry and commerce in the long run. The wealthy cannot drive the economy, only the working middle-class have the consumer volume needed to drive America and if they have no money, America''s economy fails.
Reagan ended the greatest threat this country has ever faced and you call him a do nothing President???
History lesson, Reagan didn''t end the Cold War, the congress did as they allowed the funding for efforts in Afghanistan and the USSR was run people who had the bloodthirst for power only rivaled by Hitler. This ultimately is what led to their demise, which just happened to fall on Reagan''s Presidency. While I will concede that he was good at working with the Democratic Congress and that partisanship did not completely rule D.C. while he was in office, most of what occurred in his administration was due to inertia from the two previous administrations and from Congressional Leadership.
This country has had a massive debt for decades through Repub & Demo. administrations. The tax cuts spurred the huge economic boom that we have gone through and that probably enabled many of us to buy our Hummers. If you understand economic history, economics and cause and effect you understand the impact of tax decreases on the economy.
In an ideal situation this would work, but as I explained above it has not. As my friend and economic professor Erwin would say, Reagan-omics is the theory that the rich will want to share their wealth with the poor instead of finding ways to exploit the poor to become even more wealthy. It doesn''t work and we''re starting to see more of the long-term effects.
You say McCain will "spend like the devil" but apparently think Obama is going to pay for universal health care, SS for all, etc with what????? good wishes and platitudes? BO is going to sweet talk all of our problems away. Hey sounds like typical political BS. I don''''''''t agree with McCain on a number of issues but I disagree with BO on a whole lot more. Give Pelosi, Murtha, Schumer and Kennedy a lib in the White House and we are all screwed.
They both will, but it boils down to what you want to invest in. Do you want to wait ten years and spend like the devil on offshore drilling or do you want to invest in an energy future. Do you want the government to allow Americans who are uninsured to buy into bulk plans at massive discounts or do you want a President who plans to take away the tax incentive for employers to provide employee health care? It''s a mindset that America has to move toward in order to succeed in the future. I''m a very well-educated man and have debated my own points with many who don''t agree with me. We don''t always have to agree, but we do have to agree that we base our arguments upon fact, history, and current events which can help us better understand the effects of our previous ideas.
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 8:22:39 PM
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ajnoe3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intercooled
I agree with you brother! I''''m no big fan of McCain but voting for anything else will lead to the destruction of our constitution. ajone3, you stated that we are all well off. Well, news for you, I''''m not well off!! I pay enough in taxes! I''''m self employed and pay my FICA in double! I pay for my familys health insurnace and every other so called benefit that others take for granted. I get taxed on my income, my investments and just about everything else that I pay for day to day. I pay my part and shouldnt have to pay anymore, especially for people that pay nothing and get everything! GM will survive and so will I. Our dollars may not go as far but we will get through.
I understand that we''re not all well-off, as I was making a general statement that would apply to MOST people who could afford a Hummer. BTW, Barack Obama has actually proposed to lower taxes on middle-class families who work and increase them on people in the 250K+ income bracket. You won''t be affected if you''re not in this bracket. I, on the other hand, support the ''fair tax'' proposal, which is based upon spending, not upon income.
Again, I know we don''t all agree, but we can act like adults and debate, not try and sling mud (unless you''re behind the wheel of your Hummer).
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RE: Will GM Survive? - 6/29/2008 8:40:34 PM
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ajnoe3
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To make a comment back on the topic, there is a thread in the H3 section asking people what they would think of GM absorbing Hummer vehicles into another brand, such a Chevrolet or GMC which begs the question:
Would you rather see the Hummer brand absorbed, sold, or discontinued. I''d rather it not be sold to a foreign company but if anyone has any thoughts on this please comment!
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