RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (Full Version)

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RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems

  

Trey124 -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 1:08:04 PM)

I just got mine in the mail,  it's going to have to wait until the 29th to get installed.  But as soon as I get it on, I'll let you know. 
I was just throwing my 2 cents at his suggestion, if he doesn't like your setup he could modify it.

  
ChevyHighPerformance -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 1:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VTCanyon06

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChevyHighPerformance

2) The colorado has another port in the intake for the FPR. Perhaps you can add another hose barb to the tube and a rubber cap to make one intake compatible with the H3 and the colorado/canyon.


Actually the FPR port is only on 04 and 05 model years.  They went to a different system that eliminates the fuel return lines in 06 to qualify for LEV for evaporative emissions, which was carried over to the 3.7 in 07.



The suggestion was to include a port to make the product more universal like what the competition does. This way you have one product that is more universal and reduces overhead.

Here's what your google search didn't find:

1) LT1 F-body has engine coolant routed to the throttle body through small hoses. When the coolant lines were bypassed, the car picked up 5 - 10 hp at the wheels. The 275 HP LT1s were putting down about about 220 HP at the wheels and picking up 5 hp is a 2.2% gain. The old rule of thumb is that for every 10F increase in air temp you lose 1% power. Just working backwards the air must have been heated by about 22F passing through the throttle body. The LT1 is a 5.7 L and the peak HP occurs closer to 5k RPM which means the air was moving faster than in your example. Also, the cross sectional area of the TB is less than 3" which means the air is even moving faster yet. Considering the TB is only a few inches thick and the air was moving considerably faster (at least a factor of two) than in your example how did the air get heated ~20F?

2) At the track you'll see people with ice bags on their aluminum intake to cool it down to get better ETs and MPH. If the air moves so fast that it doesn't matter what the intake it made from, why does the ice help?

3) Another example is the intake manifold on the L98 and the benefit of running a cooler thermostat.






Real estate reduction by reducing the quote of VTCanyon06's post #69 one page back.
Irrelevant data on LT1/L98 motors and drag racing ice bags left in tact as posted.

Doc Olds -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 2:01:13 PM)

Here is my suggestion: go develop, market and sell your own system for whatever you want.  Out of cheap plastic with aftermarket ice bags.  [;)]


We all realize you have superior intelligence and know it all about everything and we are not worthy of your time.  [8|] 


Oh, and dude, the throttle body is bolted to the engine, that is what's called heat CONDUCTION.  You are now on iggy.  Have a nice day.


ChevyHighPerformance -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 2:11:59 PM)

"The steel tube has to conduct more heat than a plastic tube - its just physics. Says who??? You mentioned: has to "conduct" heat more than plastic. You hit your own nail on the head. Heat is transferred by many means, conductive heat transfer is not one of them here."

My point is the heat coming up from the exhaust manifold heats the metal tube after parked for a while or during stationary idling. The warm metal tube then transfers its stored heat to the air rushing though.

If you have an OBD2 data viewer. Run the H3 for a 30-45 minutes. Park on a hill while the H3 is pointing upward and monitor the IATs (inlet air temperature) while the H3 is idling and you'll see the temperature rising. If the H3 has draws outside cold air from the fender area, why is the air getting warmer in a short time. What is heating up the air? What thermal dynamics are occurring? This is just the air temperature at the MAF - what do you think the air temperature is at the TB?


"There is probably not too much heating of the air through the tube - perhaps 5 F??? more than a plastic tube. Great theory, but no data? Have you measured or calculated the velocity of the intake charge at all rpms given the combustion of the 3.5L and 3.7L............if you have, then you know how long that air is in the
13 7/8" long metal tube at 2000 rpm and above. Let me use the technical term ....not very friggin long! [:D] I have done a wee bit of testing (I did not fall off the turnip cart yesterday) and when comparing the MAF input reading from the H3 to the throttle body end of the AirDoc pipe (I made a sensor from a second bosch MAF), I could not reliably measure any heat increase beyond margin of error (3/10ths of one degree) at any rpm over 2000, but let us assume it is one or two degrees? I'm thinking there is a lot of theory going out the window???"

So you took the thermistor from another MAF and placed in into the pipe near the throttle body? You must have had something that read the thermistor and was properly calibrated. I guess you took the H3 for a ride with this setup and measured the results compared to the IAT readings? Honestly, the IAT and ECT are only good for relative before and after measurements not necessary good for comparing one thermistor to another. The accuracy is not nearly as good as a thermocouple. Surprisingly, you didn't mention this testing when I first brought up the subject.


"Anybody doing bracket racing, 1/8 mile powder puff racing, F.A.S.T. drag series, any qualifying time runs, any racing with their Hummer? No, hummmm........heatsoaking seems to be irrelevant."

Are you saying that heatsoaking does occur, but isn't an issue since no one is bracket racing the H3?


"Let me make it abundantly clear. The reason GM, and most intake kit makers use rubber and/or plastic is because it is CHEAP. Plain and simple.
AirDocIntakes uses steel because it is far superior in strength, durability, function, and it looks cool too!"

Exotic high temperature plastics are expensive - I'm not sure how expensive compared to aluminum or steel. Aside from cost, the plastic intake manifolds have many benefits such as immunity from heatsoaking, less weight, easier to seal since they can conform more than aluminum, etc.

Of all the aftermarket intakes, I have seen plastic, aluminum, and stainless steel. Right now, I can't recall a steel intake product that is not in thermal contact with the engine. Wonder why? Steel rusts. Condensation can form and puddle and small flakes of rust can flake off into the engine. Coatings crack and paints flake, and any coating and paint has to be compatible with fuel vapors and oil mist which is also challenging.

Doc, take a step back and look at your tone and style in your posts and replies to me. You are in business. How do you want your potential customers to view you? Do you want them to feel that they will get some $hit from you if they have

ChevyHighPerformance -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 2:28:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VTCanyon06
I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but I just googled "plastic heat soak" and found the following:


Here is a complete cut and paste from the AEM website: (http://67.59.157.230/Faqs.aspx?CategoryID=31) I don't technically agree with everything that they say, but this is how they responded to the material selection question.

Q: Why does AEM use aluminum for its intake piping?
A: Our Chief Engineer John Concialdi provides an explanation of the difference between Aluminum vs. Steel vs. Plastic in inlet piping:

The issue of heat absorption with an intake system has a degree of validity, however we have found that too much emphasis is placed on material selection, instead of the real issue of tuning the system. Our systems feature a unique shape and diameter because this is what we found to make the most useable torque and horsepower for each individual application in testing. However, for the purposes of this discussion, we will limit it to why we choose to make our systems from aluminum and the effects of heat absorption on all materials. If you do not wish to review all of this information right now, a quick synopsis of this discussion is outlined in the following bullet points, with complete topic discussions below:
We use aluminum to eliminate any chance of the system rusting, and it's lighter than steel
We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct
Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power
The rate at which air travels through the inlet path under open throttle, when one is asking the engine for maximum power, negates the effect of material heat soak, regardless of the material
We use aluminum—or a combination of aluminum and plastic plenums for throttle-body-injected applications that require a special plenum—for every intake we produce. This eliminates any chance of rust occurring on the inside of the inlet pipe. We have seen chrome-plated steel systems whose inner diameter became rusted over time, causing flakes of rust to travel along the inlet path. We also choose aluminum because of its lightweight properties. Heavier components place higher loads on the brackets they are attached to—or even worse, to the pipes they are attached to. We combine our lightweight aluminum design with a flexible coupling device we call a soft mount that connects the intake system to the body of the vehicle. In addition to the soft mount, we use doublers at the point where the mounting bracket is welded to the pipe for additional strength.

We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct. Although we use the best plastic material for our plenums, it is still not as resilient and does not retain the visual appeal of aluminum over long-term use. Because we have to use plastic on throttle body applications, we take extra precautions to ensure that the aluminum retaining ring that attaches to the throttle body is anchored securely into the plastic plenum; this is done by making an interlocking mechanical link between the plastic and aluminum.

Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel, or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power. We have found that the tuning of the pipe, in addition to providing the coolest inlet air source, are the keys to making useable power. We perform engine inlet-air-temp studies when developing each application to determine the coolest location for sourcing inlet air. In addition to this, we determine the safest location for the inlet source to protect it from highly dusty conditions and water. To this end, we provide a stainless-steel heat shield to help minimize heat soak into the inlet

VTCanyon06 -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 4:35:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChevyHighPerformance
The suggestion was to include a port to make the product more universal like what the competition does. This way you have one product that is more universal and reduces overhead.

I understand that, I was merely clarifying your statement about the FPR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChevyHighPerformance
1) LT1 F-body has engine coolant routed to the throttle body through small hoses. When the coolant lines were bypassed, the car picked up 5 - 10 hp at the wheels. The 275 HP LT1s were putting down about about 220 HP at the wheels and picking up 5 hp is a 2.2% gain. The old rule of thumb is that for every 10F increase in air temp you lose 1% power. Just working backwards the air must have been heated by about 22F passing through the throttle body. The LT1 is a 5.7 L and the peak HP occurs closer to 5k RPM which means the air was moving faster than in your example. Also, the cross sectional area of the TB is less than 3" which means the air is even moving faster yet. Considering the TB is only a few inches thick and the air was moving considerably faster (at least a factor of two) than in your example how did the air get heated ~20F?

The LT1 F-Body was not the only vehicle with a 5.7L V8...Pickups, Suburbans, Tahoes, Express vans, etc...all of which have peak HP around 3000 RPM EDIT: These (original) calculations (on previous page) are likely not from the LT1.  The 5.7L V8 referenced doesnt even have to be GM, as there are other 5.7L V8s

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChevyHighPerformance
2) At the track you'll see people with ice bags on their aluminum intake to cool it down to get better ETs and MPH. If the air moves so fast that it doesn't matter what the intake it made from, why does the ice help?

Just because everyone does it doesnt mean it actually works, shows like mythbusters exist because of this.  Can you prove why the ice works?  I'll believe it if you can mathematically prove it to me.  Race engines also run hotter and have hotter exhaust from high compression, race fuel, etc. than any street car will ever see.  They also do not have heat shielding unless JetHot coating or a wrap has been used.  Exhaust temps and underhood temperatures are much higher than on a street driven vehicle.  I've been around all sorts of racing since I was a little kid and the only ones I see using ice are drag racers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChevyHighPerformance
3) Another example is the intake manifold on the L98 and the benefit of running a cooler thermostat.

What does this have to do with the intake tract before the throttle body?  If left alone, a cooler thermostat than stock can also lead to incomplete burn and carbon buildup.

Yes it is possible for the steel tube to get heated after parking, just like everything else in the engine bay will get heated.  Even the engine gets hotter temporarily because the coolant is no longer being circulated through the radiator.  The air left in the pipe at engine shut off would heat up, but it will be consumed as soon as you start the engine again.  The hot air will be replaced with new, cooler air before you can even shift into gear.  All following air will pass through the pipe and the heat will have little to no effect as the information I found confirmed.

I'm just going to post one sentence again:
"Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power"

ChevyHighPerformance -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 6:27:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VTCanyon06

The LT1 F-Body was not the only vehicle with a 5.7L V8...Pickups, Suburbans, Tahoes, Express vans, etc...all of which have peak HP around 3000 RPM These calculations are likely not from the LT1.  The 5.7L V8 referenced doesnt even have to be GM, as there are other 5.7L V8s


Here is a dyno from a 1996 LT1 WS6.  The stock HP was around 310 BHP.  This shows the before and after dyno from bypassing the throttle body coolant.  http://www.ws6.com/mod-8.htm

There was a 6.4 HP gain which was a 2.2% gain.  Peak HP occurs around 5300 RPM.

The air velocity was pretty fast through the throttle body, and in the short time the air spent there it got heated ~20F.

Doc Olds -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 8:03:26 PM)

If someone were to, hypethetically speaking, ask me what I would like people to think about me??   when responding to a person, commonly known as the classic chest pounder, who were to post messages in my thread not merely debating product I were to offer for sale, but profess to repeatedly make suggestions about what I should do in their opinion as to:
how to (most recently) run my business;
how to make my product;
how much they know about all kinds of things irrelevent to my product's application;
and how they have made different products trying to do the same thing as my product, ...........but the entire time the person so professing said unrequested suggestions knows absolutely nothing about my business, or how my product is made or why.........after having already made several polite responses to said suggestions, and left clues for the clueless said person so professing to move along skippy...............
considering the clueless professing person has their last 6 of all 139 posts in such a thread.....

I would want people to think I am positive such a hypothetical person repeatedly professing as such is a DIKK, who also would be happy to tell all of us what and how we all should be doing anything because they know it all and want to share, even though the were never invited to.

Now if the said hypothetical person were invited, requested, or solicited to share their opinion as to my business strategy, how to make my product, and provide data irrelevant to my product's application, and describe what other things they have made trying to do a similar task performed by my product, that would of course be an entirely different matter.  [:D]

I would also people to think that the invite made to everyone in the beginning of this thread remains posted and does not in fact ask people to share said repeated suggestions more fully described herein above. [;)]


TheGunnyRet -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/19/2008 11:57:35 PM)

I thought this might help settle the argument;

"Since the first engine sucked in air, intake air has been heated to some extent. Remember on cars equipped with carburetors there was a large tube that connected to the air cleaner? Well the other end of that hose was connected to a heat collector around the exhaust manifold. This is how warm air got to the carburetor.
There's two reasons we want to heat the incoming air. The first is that the atomized fuel will mix with warm air better than cold air. This was actually more important with carburetted engines rather than fuel injected engines.
The second reason is to keep the throttle chamber from freezing. Yep, that's right. I said freezing. As in ice forming inside the throttle chamber.
Anyone who lives where it gets cold in the winter has heard of "wind chill". It'll be 30° with a wind chill of 10°. As the air moves through the throttle body, the same wind chill affects the inside if the throttle body. Under certain conditions, such as high humidity, condensation will form inside the throttle body and the moving air will freeze it. This ice will keep building up until it chokes off the air supply and the engine dies.
By running hot coolant through passages in the throttle body, it keeps the throttle body warm and prevents this ice from building up.
Some early fuel injected engines did not have heated throttle bodies and ice formation was such a problem that heated throttle bodies were retro fitted at the dealerships."

All I know is Heat can not be avoided wether plastic. aluminum, steel, PVC, cardboard, CF. To note we are dealing with NA engine not forced induction. So restriction is the main factor and velocity is crucial.

Oh, almost forgot, the reason for the Ice bags on the "manifolds" is because you want the air "after" the TB (CHOKE POINT) to be cooled to slightly increase HP and reduce heat soak because after you race you usaully go back into a line and wait to race again. THe reasons why the Professionals don't do it because they have time between runs and thereby the engine is allowed to cool down.      

jackk frost -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/20/2008 6:15:08 AM)

I think it is rude to keep comming here and bashing doc's CAI. He has tested it and desinged it how he likes just like the other 10 companys that have made thiers and most are differnt in some way. Doc is obviously very proud of his product which he should be. If his CAI isn't your cup of tea then go buy one from another manufacture OR get off your azz and build your own OR I bet if you asked doc to make you one slightly altered to YOUR likeing he probably would at a small extra price or even for free to test it (not trying to speak for you doc).
So far a few people here have bought and installed thiers and gave what I think to be pretty honest evaluations on it. I myself will be purchasing one one I can buy a filter for my 08 to use on it. I am impressed by looking at his set up and it looks to me to at the least be very competitive with what other manufacutres have out on the market. I would rather pay 200$ for some thing made of metal than plastic myself and certainly agree with doc that that those other guys use plastic for the cost factor not heat factor.


Doc don't forget to holla at me when you get that 08 version ready!

HummerGuy -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/20/2008 6:51:08 AM)

I'd like to state a personal opinion as somebody who doesn't understand half of the technical jargon going on here even though I've read it a few times:

ChevyHighPerformance has always come on here with, in my unknowledgeable opinion, good feedback and advice on mechinical questions.

Doc has also done this with me and everybody else as well.  BOTH of you guys know your stuff, more-so then most of us non-gearheads do.

After reading through alot of this over and over (yes, I'm actually doing that before speaking), I just think this is turning into a how-to discussion.

Having tested Doc's product, I can tell you the bottom-line is that it DOES noticably improve many aspects of the performance of my H3.  I don't sit there thinking about what is happening mechanically, but I drive it, love the performance increase, and only care about the bottom-line result.

That being said, I'm not siding with either one of you two [;)] but saying everybody has their opinions of how things should be done, and to me, someone who doesn't know the scientific results of air flow as related to performance as you guys do, I can tell you that it just seems like something that turned into a constructive suggestions back and forth (again, MY opinion) is now spiralling into the black hole abyss we know as the plague of HummerGuy, which is going from a suggestion or constructive arguement to perhaps getting ugly? I dunno.

You guys are both very knowledgeable but I think the point is this system works.  Could it be done better, apparently it can in some ways, hell if I know, because all I know is " cold air make car faster" in caveman terms, but I'll say for somebody that designed this on his own time and made us smile after it was installed, I could care less if it gets another one or two horsepower or if it should be wrapped in ICY HOT pads or parked in a refridgerator overnight [;)]

I would suggest to my friends that maybe you guys should start a new thread in the Intake section discussing your opinions.

I think we are all learning alot from you two just talking about it.  I know I have.  I'm just waiting for the 1.21 Gigawatts and Flex Capacitor to be thrown in here somewhere and then I'll be ALL over that [:D]

Bottom-line? Despite HOW it's made or WHAT it's made from, it works, and honestly, that's all I care about.  The quality is in no professional terms, "kick-ass" to me, and I will recommend it to anybody who is looking for something like it.

I can't justify spending $250 or so on something made of plastic, but that's because I'm un-educated in this area, and you guys are both teaching us all about air flow.  I just can't personally spend that much money on a piece of plastic.  Maybe it's special plastic? Maybe it's lined with gold? I dunno, but that's my opinion, as others.

Now for a piece of mannish-metal? I would spend it for.  Does it make me feel better to buy metal over plastic? Yes.  Will it make my car be a bit slower or faster? I don't care.  I want durability.  Steel is harder then plastic.  If it means it's better or worse in performance, personally I could give two-bleeps condisering both will increase my power no matter what.

The point is us newbies and amateur engine modders don't really care about that 1 or 2 HP variance.  We want something at a good price, and bottom line, THIS system is great for the money, it works VERY well, and we are happy.

Just remember us newbie engine people when we give our opinions, well, speaking for myself of course [;)]  I love Docs system AND K&N's metallic-like parts system.  Doesn't mean it's the best though [8|]

Doc Olds -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/20/2008 7:34:47 AM)

HG, did you ever golf before??? 

This thread was not and is not intended to be a How To.  Anybody is welcome to go start one.

Anyone is welcome to criticize my product design and/or its materials.  I did not invite anyone, nor do I need some guy in my thread, to tell me in their opinion what they want to do, or what I should do, or what my business should do.  I did not ask for their opinion on those topics, and don't give too loose chits about them.  They can do their own thing somewhere else, or tell their kids what to do.

I don't golf, but when you invite someone to come along and golf with you, do you enjoy it when the guy turns out to be a dikk who will be telling you how to shoot every shot, what club to use, how to improve your swing, and how they know it all?   Even after you let them know you are not interested in there repeted golf technique suggestion?   If that guy were to be golfing with me, at about the fairway to the fifth hole, he would be left standing there with a knot upside his head, but I don't golf. 

HummerGuy -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/20/2008 7:41:54 AM)

That's what I meant Doc.  That's why I said it looked like it turned into a How-to, meaning ChevyHighPerformance seemed to me to say "This is How To" design or create it.  I never knocked you or meant it towards you or your product.  How can I when I tested it?

See this is what I mean.  I say one thing and it always gets twisted to another meaning.  Then people wonder why I don't post anymore [8|]

Doc Olds -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/20/2008 7:58:10 AM)

So, want to go golfing?   [:D]


HummerGuy -> RE: H3 Hummer Performance Intakes Systems (3/20/2008 8:15:11 AM)

I don't Golf.  My friend is semi-pro, and I tell him I think it's the most boring sport ever known to man.  He tried to teach me once, and I ended up hitting someone in the head half 100 yards away when I meant to aim straight and for some reason it went 70 degrees in the other direction.

No thanks [:D]

Suffice to say, he didn't stand there critiqing me either.  He just gave me some pointers and let me do my own thing, but was there when I asked for help.

I guess we all have own our opinions on how help should be handed out or asked for [;)]

  

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