Hummer H2/H3 E85 Flex Fuel upgrade/conversion kits Info

Update: (scroll further down to see system information)
 
I've been a bit busy that past couple of days.  I'm using what free time I have to talk to people about upgrading the H3 to E85, getting in touch with the companies that make the kits, etc.  I'm getting 50/50 Yes and No mixed opinions about doing it.  Some sources inside GM say it can be done with no problem, others say don't do it because it may cause some kind of advanced deterioration of your fuel system components.

The point is, I'm really interested in doing this, so I'm going to find out as much as I can, and may or may not do it.  I have a '06 H3 3.5L.  Right now, I'm trying to get a copy of the instructions because I still can't figure out how to safely remove the components I need to get to the Fuel Injectors.  Little things like that are getting in the way.

The only EPA-approved company that makes this system is based here in Chicago, about 25 minutes from where I work.  That's the company I'm focusing my energy on right now. 

So, for anybody who's interested, I'll keep you updated on what I find out.  So far from my research and talking to people whom I have business ties with through our company, alot of the negative points I've been told about it damaging your engine, etc. isn't all true.  I'm still gathering more info.  The last thing I want to do is destroy my fuel system, but so far, that doesn't look possible.

It's more in the seals / rubber polymer type components that can degrade over time.  Remember that E85 isn't run through a pipeline anywhere yet because of the same concerns, and also if it leaks / breaks there it's millions of dollars to clean up vs. relatively little in a vehicle.

Good luck and keep us posted!

I was looking at the same think a few weeks ago and came across an interesting article on E85 conversions.  The article link is http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm  You may have already seen this but it really seemed easy to do.  Hope this helped or gives you more info than you had. 

You already know my thoughts   Converting older H3's to E85 - Can it be done?    The concern is code errors/service light issues and rough idle, not the fuel system.
 
Thought I'd post a GM pic of the 07 I5 injector side for everybody to gander at.
 

I'm talking to someone from this company:
 
http://www.fullflexint.com/
 
I believe he is the head of the company (not sure).  He is also a Hummer owner and president of the Treasure Valley Hummer Club in Idaho, so it looks like we all have something in common.  I asked him to come check out our forum and perhaps he'll have some info he can give us.
 
He has run the kit in their H3 since they got it.  He said it's only run one tank of normal gas.  It's been running E85 for 7000 miles so far.  I just think it's interesting to have someone involved in our Hummer community that is also a part of something like this.  Hopefully he can drop in and be a part of our community.

Here's the problem Doc.  I can't figure out how to get that plastic housing off to get to the injectors.  It looks like there are a couple of bolts holding it on, but you cant pull the plastic away.  I wasn't sure if that was a sealed container of some kind, or just a cover to protect the fuel lines.  That's why I'm wondering if there's more involved in the H3, like taking a fuel line off or removing something else in order to get to them. 
 
He said they haven't had any problems with E85 in the H3.
 
His name is Alex.  Here's a video of him taking the E85 H3 out in the dunes of Idaho:
 
http://www.fullflexint.com/audio/E2.wmv

Get yourself a shop manual.  Have your bud HummerMike copy a couple of pages from work if you do not want to plunk down the cash for a full set...............I think the Helms is like $135.00?????
 
Just a plastic cover, but it has all the Dolly Lama's secrets inside it and the curse of the Pharaoh Tutenkamun to those who dare to open it!  
Take out the 4 or 5 fasteners and give the lid a pull. 

There's two parts to that thing though.  It looks like you'd have to remove the entire housing to get to the injectors.
 
As busy as Mike has been lately, I doubt I'd see those pages anytime soon

Lid first I believe.

Well, I just hope the fuel lines don't pass through the other part of the thing.  I'll check it out this weekend, after I lower my front end

OK Here goes (for the third time ):

(this is not an advertisement or site-sponsor.  This is my own research and information collection and does not reflect any opinions of the site members or owners)

Full Flex International (the kit I mentioned above): http://www.fullflexint.com/
 
This system is a pass-through system.  You disconnect your current fuel injector wires and plug them into the input of the Full Flex control module.  The control module has plugs/cables that go out from the module and back into the fuel injectors.  The module adjusts or compensates for the E85 by adjusting the fuel/air mixture.  It can work with regular and E85, or a combination of both in the tank.  The suggested retail for this kit (for a V8) is $499, and has been tested on the H2 and H3, as shown on their site.  The contact who I've been in touch with has a H2 and H3 with the system installed and loves it.  He said it's a 20 minute installation process if you know your way around an engine.

Flex Fuel US (the first and only EPA-certified system): http://flexfuelus.com/

This kit is a little different.  This system requires you swap out your fuel injectors with ones provided with the kit.  Basically, you remove your fuel injector wires, remove the injectors themselves, replace the injectors with the ones attached to the control module, and then plug the factory injector cables back into the new injectors themselves.  I believe (not sure) this works the same as the Full Flex kit, but instead of controlling the exising injectors, you have injectors that have the connections built-in rather then having a passthrough system with extra connections.  I think this system also replaces either your CO2 or O2 sensor though, as this quote from their site would suggest:
"Flex Box continuously monitors your vehicle’s engine emissions and adjusts supplemental fuel injection which allows your vehicle to operate at optimal performance. " There is also a picture on the main page of a CO2 sensor attached to the control module, so this system may work a little differently, but they have very limited technical data on it, and I have not heard back from this company yet, even though they are based 25 minutes away from where I work.

Also, according to FlexFuel's site, an EPA-certified kit means that your factory warranty is not affected by law.  Also, certain states, including IL, have programs where you can get reimbursed for the installation of the kid.  In IL, it's up to 80% of the cost of the kit.  I have seen the kit on a web site for $425.  The odd thing is according to the site, it will be available soon, as the Full Flex one is already available and has been used for over a year in the U.S. and other countries.

Full Flex has been installing them on the H2's and H3's for a while now, here and in other countries.  They have not heard of any problems at all.

Full Flex is also willing to give a discount to our group here.  The regular price of the system for a V8 engine is $499.  I don't know what the pricing would be for the H3 yet since it's an I-5.  I'll post it when I find out.  I also don't know what the discounts will be yet, but will find out.

Again, this has nothing to do with this forum or it's sponsors.  I did the research myself and everything in this post is my own information.

The system was designed for the stock PCM on the H2/H3 but it will work with a tuned PCM as well apparently, so that shouldn't be an issue.  This is obviously not a replacement for a good PCM upgrade.  I don't know what the mileage and power, etc. data is, but I can try to find out.  Apparently though, the E85 gives a nice boost of power since it's rated at

And Thanks Camou, Doc and Speednut for the extra info!

quote:

ORIGINAL: HummerGuy

The system was designed for the stock PCM on the H2/H3 but it will work with a tuned PCM as well apparently, so that shouldn't be an issue.  This is obviously not a replacement for a good PCM upgrade.  I don't know what the mileage and power, etc. data is, but I can try to find out.  Apparently though, the E85 gives a nice boost of power since it's rated at 105 octane according to Full Flex, and you will feel it.

 

I'll spare you the rant on E85.
 
I will clarify something for you.
Octane doesn’t equal power.  Octane prevents detonation.
 
E85 does not burn as efficiently in typical internal combustion engines as gasoline and contains only 72% of the energy on a gallon-for-gallon basis compared to gasoline.  This will reduce your mileage on average 25%, but my guess is that on the H3, that reduction in power will result in a greater reduction in mileage than the average 25%.
 
Why you would want to do this conversion is beyond my comprehension, and there are opinions and BS on both sides, but, what I stated above is an undeniable fact (with the exception of the part I said was a guess).
 

Well, that's why I started these threads.  I'm trying to find out as much as possible, so information such as yours is valuable to me, and I'm sure more people out there, members and guests alike to this forum, are also interested. 
 
I want to do it because even though I'm not exactly a "tree hugger", the older I get and the closer I get to having children, the more I think about their future and how I'm not doing them any favors by driving a vehicle that puts out 11.2 tons of CO2 a year.  Also, E85 is available all over in my area, so finding it isn't a problem. 
 
There are a couple of things I'd like to find out though which I probably won't be able to get hard data on specifically for the H3, that is, exactly how much less mileage you get specific to the H3, and what percentage less polution it puts out.  Obviously if the H3 sticks to your percentages and will get an average of 25% less gas mileage on E85, it will actually cost you more in fuel to drive the H3 then it would sticking to standard gas.  Maybe the money is better spent on Mods to increase your mileage and power. 
 
Here in IL, you can get reimbursed for almost the entire cost of the E85 modification, so it may not cost me hardly anything when it's all said and done.
 
Another reason is I'd like to have a unique vehicle and say I have one of the only E85 Hummers on the road.  It may sound kind of gimmicky but at the same time it's also nice to know I'm not as big of a pollutant as other cars out there.
 
My question to you would be, do you know how much less pollution from a percentage using a full tank of E85 would cut compared to a full tank of good old 87 Octane?   I haven't read alot of the data yet because I've been reasearching this stuff.  The percentage may be so small that it's not really helping anything or anybody.  That is something I'd like to know and hope I can find out by the weekend by doing more research.
 
I do appreciate the feedback though.  I don't take things personal.  That's why I asked for info.

HG, maybe some of the info in this response will answer the polution question.  I really think the reality is that no one really knows and it will still be years before we find an alternative to our appetite for oil, i.e. gasoline and all other by products.  I do applaude your concern for both the environment and trying to do what you can do to make this a better place for us all.  I am reminded of a few years back when I was developing small hydroelectric power plants and although it was "green power" electricity generated without burning coal, oil or natural gas there were many environmentalists who were boistrous about the effects on fish and water temperature.  But the following are just some more facts and excerpts to make you decision and life more complicated....
 
Ethanol is a particulate-free burning fuel that combusts cleanly with oxygen to form carbon dioxide and water.
 
Gasoline produces 2.44 CO2 equivalent Kg/l and ethanol 1.94 (this is -21% CO2). Ethanol currently produced emits a similar net amount of CO2 but less carbon monoxide than gasolinebut there is no current production method that does not contribute to additional air pollution.
 
A study by atmospheric scientists at Stanford University found that E85 fuel would increase the risk of air pollution deaths relative to gasoline.  Ozone levels are significantly increased , thereby increasing photochemical smog and aggravating medical problems such as asthma.
 
A January 2006 Science article from UC Berkeley's ERG, estimated reduction from corn ethanol in greenhouse gases (GHG) to be 7.4% after reviewing a large number of studies. However, in a correction to that article releases shortly after publication, they reduce the estimated value to 7.4%. A National Geographic Magazine overview article (2007) puts the figures on 22% less GHG emissions in production and use for corn ethanol compared to gasoline and 56% reduction for cane ethanol. Carmaker Ford reports a 70% reduction in CO2 emissions with bioethanol compared to petrol.
 
Large-scale 'energy farming', necessary to produce agricultural alcohol, requires substantial amounts of cultivated land. Some claime that land is acquired through deforestation, while others have observed that areas currently supporting forests are usually not suitable for growing any sort of crops.
 
As demand for ethanol fuel increases, food crops are replaced by fuel crops, driving food supply down and food prices up. Growing demand for ethanol in the United States has in the United States rose 17% from January to June 2007 to the highest in 11 years. Prices for all grain crops trend upward, reflecting a progressive increase in farm land devoted to corn for the production of produce ethanol fuel. Prices for U.S. corn-based products, including animal feed, also rise. This translates to higher prices for animal products like chicken, beef, and cheese. June 2007 cheese prices rose to $2 per pound on average, increasing 65% over the same period in 2006. As milk prices in the United States, approached $4.00 per US gallon, many American restaurant franchises announced price increases for their products to compensate for rising food costs.

It's kinda like that theory they teach you in school that says what comes in must go out, or, any kind of energy you produce has some kind of other effect down the line.   That's some very interesting stuff.  So in esense or theory you could be actually making our Ozone layer deplete more by using Ethanol then using normal Gasoline?
 
The economics I understand completely.  I actually wrote a post about this earlier in the year, about how farmers around my area have been taking their farms off the market and more E85 pumps are popping up.
 
From reading all of this info and hearing everybody's comments, it's starting to seem like we really aren't going to know what is best right now as you say.  There seems to be alot of mixed opinions and information coming out, but I care more about statistics and facts then I do about what people's personal opinions are.
 
When you post information as you did, comparing the economic factors to the environmental ones, it kinda puts things in persepctive for me a bit, which is kinda making it look more pointless to me at this time.
 
Thanks for that information!  I can't wait to see what more people have to say about it.
 
 

Camou2 covered it pretty well.
 
E85 has been made to look good on paper.  It's making corn farmers happy, it's making the business men that made investments in refining happy, it makes the politicians happy, it makes some of the greenies happy, and it makes the soccermoms driving there Tahoes happy because they think they are saving the planet.
 
I could go on and on.... but I won't, there's tons of information out there for both sides of the argument.  Take note of the source of the information before you put any stock in it.
 
BTW: As much as I'm against E85, it's trickall down effect is good for my family's soy bean farm.
 
 
 
 

Well like I said, I really appreciate you guys getting into the topic and providing your feedback.  If anything good comes out of it, it will be that a few of us are more educated about it.  I'm sure we aren't the only ones reading this thread, so people will at least get a broader perspective of the big picture.
 
I guess it is a never-ending topic.  It seems there are more negative impacts then positive one.

You know I was watching this show the other day about alternative fuel.  They were talking about another interesting aspest of E85 production, being the various crops from which the ETOH can be grown from.  Corn was about the least efficient because they said for every one unit of fossil fuel (gas/deisel etc.) to plant, cultivate, harvest, haul and produce the ETOH from corn, they only get 1.4 units of  ETOH back out.  They predict that when they figure out to use switchgrass to produce ETOH it will yield 4 units of ETOH per unit of fossil fuel???  The switchgrass stuff isn't even figured out yet so it is just based on predtictions from aggricultural eggheads.  They also talked about units of ETOH per acre, corn was very weak.   It was all news to me and clearly shows there is no simple answer yet. 

I still think the answer was already shown to us in Back to the Future 2.  Mr. Fusion is the way to go 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc Olds

You know I was watching this show the other day about alternative fuel.  They were talking about another interesting aspest of E85 production, being the various crops from which the ETOH can be grown from.  Corn was about the least efficient because they said for every one unit of fossil fuel (gas/deisel etc.) to plant, cultivate, harvest, haul and produce the ETOH from corn, they only get 1.4 units of  ETOH back out.  They predict that when they figure out to use switchgrass to produce ETOH it will yield 4 units of ETOH per unit of fossil fuel???  The switchgrass stuff isn't even figured out yet so it is just based on predtictions from aggricultural eggheads.  They also talked about units of ETOH per acre, corn was very weak.   It was all news to me and clearly shows there is no simple answer yet. 

 
Brazil uses a lot of ethanol.  As I recall, their regular gas is blended 25% with ethanol with 40% of there fuel being primarily ethanol (think E85 but it is more than 85%).  Why does it work so well in Brazil?  They use sugar cane which is much more efficient than corn.

Steve, what you say about Brazil is correct but that is not the whole story.  Brazil started subsidizing sugar cane ethanol production probably 30 years ago to help their starving farmers and because they could not really afford to be competitive in the open market for oil in that period of their history.  So, for years both the price of ethanol was government regulated and the farming of source products i.e. sugar cane and baggass was subsidized.  So, what did that get them today? 
 
1.  "The ethanol program was not perfect and brought a host of environmental and social problems of its own. Sugarcane fields were traditionally burned just before harvest, in order to remove the leaves, kill any snakes and fertilize the fields with ash. The smoke produced each season produces the same amount of carbon polution as the sugarcane would have produced if it were left in the field to rot, which is relatively little. However, the smoke greatly impacts the sugarcane-growing parts of the country, turning the sky gray and air hazardous throughout the harvesting season. As winds carry the smoke into nearby towns, air pollution goes critical and respiratory problems soar. This practice has been decreasing of late, due to pressure from the public and health authorities."
 
2.  "Since sugarcane only requires hand labor at harvest time, this shift also created a large population of destitute migrant workers who can only find temporary employment as cane cutters (at about US$3 to 5 per day) for one or two months every year. This huge social problem has contributed to political unrest and violence in rural areas, which are now plagued by recurrent farm invasions, vandalism, armed confrontations, and assassinations."
 
Wow!!  We should sign up for this government program tomorrow.  Maybe we could pay the Brazillian government billions as consultants.

I see lawn mowers cutting grass at tax payer's expense along highways and other public lands nationwide.  As tax payers we get nothing back except the beautification of these public lands.  The public works people grab a pay check...well earned.
 
It seem logical that we could easily be planting switch grass for use to create ethanol.  Switch grass is better than corn and sugar cane as an added benefit.  Planting switch grass would be like having an insurance policy...maybe it's worth pursuing.
 

quote:

Test plots of switchgrass at Auburn University have produced up to 15 tons of dry biomass per acre, and five- year yields average 11.5 tons—enough to make 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre each year. 

 
Source:
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
 

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Detail?no=117

$424.00 for H3 flex fuel conversion looks good...even if it's a waste of money it's not that big of a waste.
 
I see oil topped $102 per barrel today...a petro company in Nigeria got attacked today...a Texas oil refinery caught fire a week ago...and gold topped at $975 an ounce.  Who knows what's up?  But flex fuel just helps to keep more options on the table.
 
So HummerGuy...is this a dead issue for you or is it still in consideration?
 
If the octane is rated at 105 then it should be a serious consideration for H2 and H1 owners...for us H3 using regular it's less of an incentive.
 

IF E85 ever goes down more then 50 to 75 cents less then regular, I'll still buy this kit.  Doing the math, spending $430 to save .50 a gallon, I wouldn't start saving money and re-cupe my costs until I got past my first 860 gallons of fuel.  This would take me approx. 1 1/2 years before I started to benefit from having it.  By then I'll probably have a second car and my Hummer may not even be around anymore.  Who knows. 
 
I'll wait for E85 to get cheaper before I do the kit.  If it does for some miraculous reason, I'll suck it up and buy it.